A colleague, Akira Miyake, asked if there was an English language transcript of our latest podcast episode on self control. He thought more people might be interested in this transcript, so I decided to put it on my blog. While the transcription and translation are pretty good, they're not perfect. Nevertheless, you get a good idea of what Anita and I were talking about. (For those of you who do understand Dutch, see the podcast player on the right.)
To set the scene, Imagine a couple, who both happen to be psychologists, sitting at the kitchen table and talking about psychology....
Intro music written and played by Rolf
<Rolf>This is Compulsion for Coherence, the podcast about the psychology of understanding.
<Rolf>My name is Rolf Zwaan.
<Anita>And I am Anita Eerland.
<Anita>Yes, January is coming to an end and many people have started the new year with good intentions.
<Anita>And when the first month is over, people quickly fall back into old patterns anyway.
<Anita>Because it is difficult to change our behavior now.
<Anita>And this morning I read a post about people who have started going to the gym since January.
<Rolf>Yes, I read that too.
<Rolf>It said, I believe, that there were more people visiting the gym this year than last January.
<Anita>Yes, that's right.
<Anita>So gym owners who were happy, I suppose.
<Anita>And then below that post were two explained comments, or letters to the editor, as you call them.
<Anita>I can't read more there, because then you have to create such an account.
<Anita>So sometimes I don't see one, and now there were two highlighted.
<Anita>And I thought it was funny, because they highlight a very different side of this message.
<Anita>First, in fact, was someone who said that people who sign up for such a subscription in January usually stop coming after five weeks.
<Anita>So that will be in one, two weeks or so.
<Anita>And then forget to cancel their subscriptions, and so that's how they bilk the gym.
<Anita>Yes, so that one was a little cynical about, not only the gym, but himself probably as well.
<Anita>So that comment was a little cynical.
<Anita>A cynical response to that post.
<Anita>And that other comment I could read was from someone who said, yes, going to the gym, was from someone who said, staying at the gym is mostly a mental issue.
<Anita>So you just have to commit to it.
<Anita>You should not give in to social pressure.
<Anita>And yes, that touches on today's topic of course self-control.
<Rolf>Yes.
<Rolf>And then what is self-control?
<Rolf>We will expand on that concept, I think, in the course of the broadcast or the episode.
<Rolf>But a first idea is that it is the ability of an individual to regulate and control his or her thoughts, emotions, impulse and behavior.
<Rolf>And so even in situations that are challenging or tempting.
<Rolf>And self-control is often seen as an important skill, contributing to things like personal growth, success and well-being.
<Anita>Yes, in any case, so that person who responded to that post thought that continuing to go to the gym was indeed mostly a matter of self-control.
<Anita>So forcing yourself to do that, not even waiting for social pressure.
<Anita>Now we are talking about self-control.
<Anita>That is the subject of today's episode.
<Anita>And there are lots of terms similar to that.
<Anita>And maybe it would be good, we've now given a definition of self-control, to also name those other concepts and explain how they then differ or rather correspond to self-control.
<Anita>First of all, self-control.
<Anita>You have given a definition there, but I would like to add to that.
<Anita>That self-control always involves a motivational conflict.
<Anita>So for example, you actually want to cut down your alcohol consumption, but you're at a party and you actually feel more like a regular beer than a non-alcoholic variety.
<Anita>Then you have the motivation to drink alcohol at that party now.
<Anita>And you also have the longer-term motivation to start drinking less.
<Anita>Well, the two are in conflict then.
<Anita>And keeping the longer-term goal in mind, i.e. reducing your alcohol consumption, and therefore ordering a non-alcoholic beer in the shorter term, that requires self-control.
<Anita>Drinking less alcohol is a good resolution for many people, as is exercising more.
<Anita>And with going to exercise more, the same principle seems to be at play, so I stay on the couch, hanging out inside.
<Anita>Or do I go outside to run?
<Anita>That's especially a tough choice when it's cold and raining outside, I know from personal experience.
<Anita>Although I haven't run for a long time.
<Anita>But anyway, you still recent by the way.
<Rolf>Yes, that's right.
<Rolf>I suddenly thought of my son-in-law, who is running so much.
<Anita>I can't be left behind.
<Rolf>Yes, and I ran then and I had not run for six years, but I thought nevertheless I can run five kilometers in one run, overconfident as I am.
<Rolf>And then I ran three in a row, which was easy.
<Rolf>And surely I could have done more, but then I thought a bit of exercising self-control, not immediately going over everything again.
<Rolf>Despite that, I think I hobbled around for a week after that.
<Anita>Well, stumbled.
<Rolf>My calves were not used to it anymore, but I do plan to do it more.
<Rolf>And yes, I used to run a lot.
<Rolf>I ran as much as fifty to seventy kilometers a week, every week, for ten years or so.
<Rolf>And yes, actually then it kind of dominates your life.
<Rolf>So for example, if I had a conference or had to give a lecture in another city or another country, I would always immediately look on Google where I could go running then.
<Rolf>And I remember that one time in Vancouver, I was at a conference and the weather was beautiful.
<Rolf>And I had seen of, oh, you have Stanley Park, which is a peninsula, and there's a nice running trail along the coast there, ten kilometers.
<Rolf>I'm going to do that.
<Rolf>But the convention was going on at the hotel near Stanley Park.
<Rolf>And when I came back from my round, then I was stretching against a wall.
<Rolf>But I hadn't seen that it was just break time for Congress.
<Rolf>And all those people, there were outside or at the window and they saw me like this.
<Rolf>And I walked in like this in my running clothes and they said, oh, what a discipline you have to go running.
<Rolf>But actually, of course, it was the other way around.
<Rolf>I was just addicted to running.
<Rolf>But the intention was for me to be at the conference.
<Rolf>So actually I had precisely no discipline.
<Rolf>And yes, I did come to realize that later.
<Rolf>So you do have to have a clear understanding of what then the larger goal actually is.
<Rolf>And so that determines, if you are doing that, so you have discipline.
<Rolf>I was training for the half marathon, but of course that was not my job.
<Anita>No, that's true.
<Anita>But actually you've mentioned discipline now.
<Anita>And self-discipline was actually another term I wanted to discuss as well, because it's very similar to self-control, but there does seem to be a difference.
<Anita>You said, self-discipline, if you...
<Anita>So those congress people thought it was about self-discipline, because you would actually go to congress, and then of course that's fun in their eyes.
<Anita>You go running instead.
<Anita>Go do something that is less fun in their eyes, and you need self-discipline for that.
<Anita>And that's exactly the difference actually with self-control.
<Anita>So when you talk about pushing yourself to do something, which is actually not that fun, which you don't feel like doing in the short term, but you do it for a long-term goal, then we are talking about self-discipline.
<Rolf>Yes, but so that was not the case with me, because I found it....
<Anita>No, but those people thought so.
<Anita>And since for you the running was more fun than the congress, so then that doesn't play.
<Anita>But if you see it the other way around, there would be self-discipline.
<Anita>Then we also have self-regulation.
<Anita>And that's actually a very broad term.
<Anita>That's about all kinds of different processes that have to do with choosing a personal goal, so for example, losing weight or drinking less alcohol, working toward that goal.
<Anita>And sometimes the goal later for what it is.
<Anita>So if at some point you decide, I'm no longer pursuing that goal.
<Anita>Everything involved in that decision-making also has to do with self-regulation.
<Rolf>Yes.
<Rolf>So then you would actually say that self-control and self-discipline both fall under self-regulation.
<Anita>Yes, that self-regulation is actually the broader, overarching concept.
<Anita>This includes self-control and self-discipline.
<Anita>And then I have one last one and that is self-control or also called impulse control.
<Anita>That's also a term you come across a lot and that's one of the characteristics of self-control.
<Anita>So maybe good since self-control is today's topic to, now that we've discussed those related concepts, to dive deeper into self-control.
<Rolf>Yes, and we have here then four characteristics of self-control that we will go off for a moment.
<Rolf>And so the first is indeed that self-control or impulse control.
<Rolf>So you suppress the immediate desire.
<Rolf>To buy, say, a Mars or something.
<Rolf>I don't like mars, by the way, but in a manner of speaking.
<Anita>I don't have a problem with not buying a Mars either.
<Rolf>In favor of a great cause or long-term interest.
<Rolf>And also, for example, don't immediately react with anger when you receive criticism.
<Anita>I have a little more of a problem with that.
<Anita>I can leave a Mars without any problem.
<Rolf>Or don't start honking like a busybody and pointing at your forehead when someone doesn't give you the right of way.
<Anita>Yes, that suits you more.
<Rolf>Yes, but I've gotten better at that.
<Rolf>Ice were yesterday on the German Autobahn.
<Rolf>I did hit my forehead once, but I didn't honk.
<Rolf>And beyond that, I just shook my head pityingly.
<Rolf>So it wasn't too bad this time.
<Rolf>As you get older, that might get better.
<Rolf>I don't know about that, that impulse control.
<Anita>Yes, it could be.
<Rolf>Well, emotion regulation, that's a second core characteristic then.
<Rolf>So that is the ability to control emotions, such as frustration, sadness or anger, and then express yourself in a constructive way.
<Rolf>So if you can regulate your emotions well, you would not easily be overwhelmed by intense emotions that then determine your behavior.
<Rolf>So then not that you don't feel those emotions, or that you can't experience them, but they don't get the upper hand.
<Rolf>And that is, for example, that you calm down before entering into a difficult discussion.
<Anita>Yes, and of course there are situations to think of where it makes perfect sense to experience intense emotions.
<Anita>So that's not the point now.
<Anita>These are actually situations that do not call for a violent emotional reaction, but in which you can experience them.
<Rolf>That's right.
<Rolf>Well, so that's the second characteristic then.
<Rolf>And the third characteristic is purposeful behavior, even when something is unpleasant.
<Rolf>So then again you have that conflict between two goals.
<Rolf>The one goal is to go do something more fun than that one thing.
<Rolf>For example, then exercise if you don't like it.
<Rolf>Then you'd rather stay on the couch or I don't know what.
<Anita>Or so already ordering a regular beer, when you actually want less than drink.
<Rolf>Yes, so sticking to goals.
<Rolf>And so, for example, also at work, for example, working through a project, even if it's boring or difficult.
<Rolf>And waiver while exercising.
<Rolf>I know that then, too.
<Rolf>I knew then, too.
<Anita>Well, didn't you give up last time with running then?
<Rolf>No.
<Anita>No, not while walking, but afterward.
<Rolf>Yes, after that, yes.
<Rolf>But that was because I wasn't used to running on forefoot anymore.
<Rolf>I think that was it.
<Rolf>But well, and resistance to temptation.
<Rolf>So the ability to say no to immediate temptations.
<Rolf>And so, for example, of do you want another piece of apple pie or something, if you're on your own.
<Rolf>And don't eat unhealthy snacks when you're dieting.
<Rolf>And don't drink beer on the slopes either if you have to ski afterwards.
<Anita>Yes.
<Rolf>Which we adhere to well these days, I must say.
<Anita>Well, that's better too.
<Rolf>Yes.
<Anita>And can you maybe ask yourself of why are we talking about self-control?
<Anita>Why is that such an important or interesting topic?
<Anita>Now, good self-control seems to be a predictor of all kinds of positive long-term outcomes.
<Anita>So people with good self-control, they would experience more personal growth.
<Anita>Self-control makes it easier to overcome negative habits and develop positive ones.
<Anita>Well, that leads to personal growth.
<Anita>It is also related to success in relationships.
<Anita>Well, if you could better control your emotions and reactions, you would be less likely to get into conflicts.
<Anita>And if you find yourself in a conflict, you better resolve it.
<Anita>That's obviously helpful for your interpersonal relationships.
<Anita>Good self-control also correlates with academic and professional success.
<Anita>You've just been working on a task even though you don't really feel like it anymore or it's boring or something.
<Anita>Self-control helps people work consistently and avoid distractions.
<Anita>So really focus on a task.
<Anita>And it also correlates with better health.
<Anita>So self-control helps you make healthier choices.
<Anita>We have had several holes about exercising and leaving a snack and so on.
<Anita>Also get enough sleep, for example.
<Anita>Well, that helps with better health.
<Anita>And so that works better when you have more self-control.
<Anita>Maybe because then you decide not to linger too long at a party and go to bed earlier or something.
<Anita>I have no idea.
<Anita>But at least good self-control appears to be a predictor of all kinds of positive things.
<Anita>Many different areas.
<Anita>So that's why it's kind of interesting to look at self-control.
<Rolf>Yes, when we were reading so much about self-control, I did see that there is a huge literature.
<Rolf>Not only, let's say, in cognitive psychology, but also in clinical psychology, of course.
<Rolf>And there are lots of self-help books on self-control.
<Rolf>Well, we've already given some examples, but so you can think of things like not giving in to impulse buying, for example, or impulse buying I should say, even if something seems attractive.
<Rolf>That you think, oh, that's discount.
<Rolf>I still have a page open now, a tab of a guitar that is still expensive, but very much cheaper.
<Rolf>And I look at it every day.
<Anita>I think you really have had that one open for months.
<Rolf>Then I keep saying to myself, no, I don't need it.
<Anita>Ah, self-control?
<Rolf>Yes, so I think I've kept it open, but I still look there from time to time.
<Rolf>Till well down.
<Rolf>And I came earlier during a stressful situation by taking deep breaths, we said something like that before, and so also sustain a work session or a sports session, despite distractions from social media or friends.
<Rolf>And now there are those who say yes, self-control is a skill that can be developed and strengthened through practice and awareness.
<Rolf>And that plays a crucial role in achieving a successful life, you might say.
<Rolf>And that it then....
<Rolf>I had a colleague in Florida, Roy Baumeister, who then had the idea of self-control is a kind of muscle you can train.
<Rolf>And then if you used it too much, you suddenly had no self-control or something.
<Rolf>But that research is pretty debunked, I must say.
<Anita>Was that the ego depletion?
<Rolf>Yes, ego depletion.
<Rolf>But anyway, so self-control is all about choosing between immediate temptations and long-term focused goals.
<Rolf>And those goals can also be prosocial, so good for others, so to speak.
<Rolf>And what has traditionally happened in psychology, at least, is that research on self-control has focused on individual processes, such as willpower.
<Rolf>So not social processes, but more focused on the individual.
<Anita>Yes, so if you just can't manage to get rid of your smoking addiction, or if you just can't manage to lose weight, it's partly because you don't have good self-control.
<Anita>And that you still keep succumbing to short-term temptation and forgetting the long-term goal.
<Anita>That is then blamed on personal factors in that traditional approach, on that traditional research.
<Anita>Then it's down to your personality.
<Rolf>Yes.
<Rolf>And so, we read an article now, that's also in the show notes.
<Rolf>And that actually argues from, you have to approach self-control not only as at the level of the individual, but also at the level of, let's say, the local environment and the global environment.
<Rolf>It even distinguishes between three types of environmental factors, micro, meso and macro.
<Rolf>And so it is indeed about things like the layout of the supermarket, but also, for example, about policy, government policy, about economic structures and so on.
<Rolf>And then what you see is that in the research that's been done so far on self-control, is that people who have strong self-control, they don't actually need to use that self-control that much at all, because they often avoid situations where they might be tempted, to do something that doesn't then support their goals.
<Rolf>And in addition, environmental factors often determine how much temptation is present in your environment.
<Rolf>And this is very clear in obesity, for example, where the food environment is very important.
<Rolf>In the United States, I do know that there is research that in some neighborhoods, yes, you can only...
<Rolf>You already have to go somewhere by car to get food.
<Rolf>And then there is only fast food in the neighborhood.
<Rolf>You have to drive really far by being able to get fresh vegetables.
<Anita>Yes, well, and I'm always thinking about the station, the train station.
<Anita>I don't know how many stores you have with all the snacks.
<Anita>If you have a few minutes, you can get it and eat it like this.
<Anita>There are also always an awful lot of people snacking at the station.
<Anita>Can't say I'm never one of those.
<Anita>But such an environment does make people tend to do that.
<Anita>So even if you're not planning to snack, if you're at the station and you're still waiting.
<Anita>Even on the platform there are those things.
<Anita>So then you're already through the gates.
<Anita>You are just standing on the platform of the train.
<Anita>So it's one of those kiosks with all kinds of unhealthy snacks?
<Rolf>Well, at our Erasmus University campus, that's where the Spar is.
<Rolf>And I always notice that there are a lot more unhealthy things there.
<Rolf>Then let's say in other savings you know.
<Anita>It's a completely different concept.
<Anita>Also more focused on fast...
<Rolf>Yes, quickly, but a lot of unhealthy things actually.
<Rolf>And then we also have on campus some and a Starbucks.
<Rolf>But now it's Coffee Fellows, I believe.
<Rolf>But then there you have lots of cakes.
<Rolf>And you sometimes see people walking away with things that are not coffee, but a whole dessert, so to speak.
<Rolf>So then I think, yes, all of that is also environment that actually tempts some people to engage in unhealthy behaviors.
<Anita>Yes, and now we're talking about what the environment looks like.
<Anita>And that that causes people to perhaps make unhealthier choices and have more difficulty with their self-control.
<Anita>I mentioned smoking earlier.
<Anita>And with regard to smoking, you can see that there has been a change there in recent years.
<Anita>That was addressed with policy.
<Anita>So you may smoke fewer places.
<Anita>You are no longer allowed to smoke in the hospitality industry.
<Anita>First at work, I remember, on the 5th floor there was one of those smoking pens.
<Rolf>Yes, that was such a blue of smoke indeed.
<Anita>And I don't think that's now either.
<Anita>Are you only allowed to smoke outside?
<Rolf>No, in front of the building I don't think you can smoke either.
<Rolf>There I also see....
<Rolf>Sometimes there are smokers behind the building.
<Rolf>You sometimes notice that too, because you sometimes stand in the elevator with someone who smells terribly of smoking.
<Anita>Maybe they will have smoke-free campus now too.
<Anita>But in any case, such a discouragement policy does then make it easier for people to exercise that self-control.
<Rolf>Yes, that is indeed true.
<Rolf>So what that shows is that self-control is not just an individual responsibility, but it is indeed a phenomenon that is dependent or determined by environmental factors.
<Anita>Yes, and so in addition to that individual approach that we were talking about, so how self-monitoring has been approached so far, more from the science, but also from a clinical angle, for example.
<Anita>Contrast this with a more multi-level approach, which does include those individual factors.
<Anita>So it is not said of an individual can do absolutely nothing about it himself, but that it is integrated with also more structural factors.
<Anita>And when you do that, such an approach, you approach that relationship between an individual and his or her environment.
<Anita>And when you do, it offers more insights.
<Anita>Both for research, that's where you approach self-monitoring in a different way, and also for policy making.
<Anita>So if you want people to engage in certain behaviors, then you can say, yes, people should just exercise more self-control.
<Anita>But you can also see what you can do as a policy to modify the environment so that it becomes easier for people to exercise that self-control.
<Anita>So it can help design interventions that are not just focused on the individual, but really drive structural change.
<Anita>And if you do that, yes, you can come up with more effective solutions to all kinds of societal self-control problems.
<Anita>Because we do say obesity, for example, yes, is a problem of the individual, but of course is also a social problem.
<Anita>And so are environmental problems that you can address this way.
<Anita>And consumption behavior, for example, well, again is related to the environment and, by the way, obesity.
<Anita>But anyway, so to address those complex problems, such a multilevel approach is actually, yes, more promising.
<Rolf>Yes, yes, and so well, that's actually what this article we're discussing argues.
<Rolf>And that article itself links to an article we discussed several broadcasts ago.
<Rolf>Well, some something like forty broadcasts ago.
<Anita>So long ago already?
<Rolf>Yes, yes, episodes 86 and 87.
<Rolf>There we were talking about the I-frame and the S-frame.
<Rolf>And the I-frame is to blame the problem on the individual.
<Rolf>So obesity is the problem of the individual.
<Rolf>And so the individual has to show more willpower or whatever.
<Rolf>The S-frame stands for system frame.
<Rolf>That said, yes, but you achieve more if you change something about the legislation.
<Rolf>But yes, business usually doesn't want that.
<Rolf>There is a lot of pressure not to use the S-frame.
<Anita>There is also much more complicated.
<Rolf>So then people just say, okay, you have to separate plastic from paper and I don't know what.
<Rolf>While many important gains could probably be made at the system level.
<Rolf>And so too, perhaps in terms of self-control.
<Anita>Well, first let's look again at the traditional approach to self-control.
<Anita>So then it is assumed that self-control is mainly an individual process.
<Anita>Then the focus is mainly on personality traits, such as impulsivity or discipline, and cognitive skills, such as inhibition, for example.
<Anita>And those kinds of characteristics or skills are then tested in a lab, if you want to know whether people have a lot of self-control or little self-control.
<Anita>With, for example, a questionnaire or with experimental tasks, where people then have to choose, for example, between a short-term reward or a long-term reward, and how long can people put it off and so on.
<Anita>So of course it is all very nicely conceived, but the downside of this kind of test is that it takes very little account of the everyday reality in which self-control or the lack thereof takes place.
<Anita>And in addition, there are all kinds of interventions to improve self-control.
<Anita>You said all self-help books, of so you can better regulate your emotions.
<Anita>And there are an awful lot of such things online as well, I saw the other day.
<Anita>But so all those interventions that focus on improving individual skills.
<Anita>Trains of will or how to create new habits or something.
<Anita>And of course that can be very valuable, but such an approach does fall short.
<Anita>For there is actually very little, and certainly not enough, attention paid to the influence of a person's social or physical environment.
<Anita>We do not live in a sterile, controlled lab environment.
<Anita>So if we want to better understand self-control, and help people exercise better self-control, we need to look beyond just those individual factors.
<Anita>An example is the conflict between the desire to consume meat, and the desire to avoid meat for ethical or environmental reasons.
<Anita>And then self-control is traditionally seen as a personal struggle to show willpower and make a better choice.
<Anita>But in reality, there can be all kinds of external factors that influence your choice, to consume meat or not, such as the availability of meatless options in a restaurant, for example.
<Anita>If there are no vegetarian dishes on the menu, you may not want to eat meat.
<Anita>Oh no, the other way around.
<Rolf>No, that's right.
<Anita>That's right, then you can't want to eat meat.
<Anita>But then when that option is not there, you still choose a dish with meat.
<Anita>But also, for example, the price of meat substitutes.
<Anita>That price is higher than for a lot of meat.
<Anita>So that may be an economic consideration.
<Rolf>Or how healthy meat substitutes actually are then.
<Rolf>These often contain more salt.
<Anita>Well, there are all kinds of different studies on that.
<Anita>But yes, no doubt that also plays a role.
<Anita>Social norms for eating.
<Anita>So that's more of a social factor then.
<Anita>All these external factors, they also determine a person's choice.
<Anita>So then it's not just down to willpower, for example.
<Rolf>Now people are researching self-control not only in the lab, but also in everyday situations.
<Rolf>And then snapshots are taken in everyday life.
<Rolf>And then what you see is an interesting paradox.
<Rolf>That's people saying, I have a lot of self-control.
<Rolf>Those who have spoken on average, they are less tempted to do something.
<Rolf>And they also have less problematic desires.
<Rolf>So they are actually not tempted to deviate from their goal.
<Rolf>And then you might say, how can that be?
<Rolf>So they have more self-control, but they use that self-control less.
<Rolf>But the explanation then is that those people who therefore say of themselves, and research shows that they are right in this, that they have a lot of willpower, they avoid situations through which they might be tempted.
<Rolf>So they bypass motivational conflicts.
<Rolf>They avoid exposure to tempting stimuli.
<Rolf>So self-control is not only thus an individual responsibility, as we have said several times, but is thus also strongly influenced by the environment.
<Rolf>And that environment can then influence in two ways.
<Anita>Yes, so you can actively shape your environment yourself.
<Anita>That's one of those two ways.
<Anita>So as you said, people who say, who themselves say they have good self-control, they often avoid tempting situations or they adjust their environment to minimize temptations.
<Anita>So for example you surround yourself with people who support healthy behaviors.
<Anita>Thereby changing your social environment or by removing tempting stimuli from your immediate environment.
<Anita>And that's actually proactive.
<Anita>Proactively managing your environment is often more effective than reactive strategies.
<Anita>So you're not going to intervene what is going to change your environment until those temptations are already there.
<Anita>So with proactive, you actually do everything you can to avoid falling into that temptation.
<Anita>Because then you know, yes then there is nothing I have to resist.
<Anita>Reactive is that you start adjusting your environment the moment you notice of oh come tempted to do things that I really don't want to do.
<Anita>So I have to start changing something.
<Rolf>Yes, yes so that's an example then.
<Rolf>So that you are actively shaping the environment so that well you don't actually have to use your self-control as much.
<Rolf>But of course there are many aspects of the environment that are determined by others and by policy makers, corporations or social structures.
<Rolf>And yes, we have already talked about something then called an obesogenic environment.
<Rolf>So an area where there are a lot of fast food restaurants.
<Rolf>And so if you live there and there are few greengrocers in the neighborhood, for example, that's already a factor that so then increases the temptation for people to go for the fast food because it takes less effort.
<Rolf>But is fast food also cheaper?
<Rolf>I do remember when I was in the US for the first time, it amazed me how many of those ads you saw, billboards, saying how expensive something was, from 1.99 or so.
<Rolf>While I thought, if you're going to eat somewhere, what matters is that it's tasty.
<Rolf>But no, it's about being cheap.
<Rolf>And so if a hamburger is cheaper than fruits and vegetables, you make it harder for people to make a healthy choice.
<Anita>Yes, and so these are other things.
<Anita>Because this is not something you as a person...
<Anita>You can say, yes, then go live in another neighborhood or something.
<Anita>But of course that is much more difficult and much more far-reaching to deal with.
<Anita>So indeed you cannot always bend your environment to your will.
<Rolf>No, that's the point here.
<Rolf>Because the environment is determined by others, like policy makers and so on.
<Anita>Yes, no, I get that.
<Anita>But it just seems like then you could say, yeah, you're going to live in another neighborhood.
<Anita>In that way, you can also adjust your environment.
<Anita>But this is about bigger things.
<Rolf>Yes, because there are all the social-
<Rolf>economic factors play a role.
<Rolf>You can't move to another neighborhood because the houses there are too expensive or whatever.
<Rolf>So that plays out very clearly in the United States.
<Rolf>You can just see it when you drive around a city.
<Rolf>And so then you also need the car and then again you don't walk.
<Rolf>But yes, in the Netherlands we do have things like that.
<Rolf>I think I read in the paper yesterday, in Almere, that the municipality of Almere wants no unhealthy food, and by that they mean especially deep-frying, well, to be offered near schools and hospitals.
<Rolf>And then of course people are against that, because they say what you said earlier, that it is patronizing, you have to know it yourself, and I don't know what else.
<Rolf>So there's a whole discussion about that in Almere then.
<Rolf>But anyway, that's just one example, unhealthy food.
<Rolf>But you can also think about addiction issues, or the environment, all kinds of other things.
<Rolf>So what is said in the article we are discussing is, we need a multi-level approach.
<Rolf>So we need it on the S-frame of the system.
<Rolf>In addition to that, the approach at the level of the individual.
<Anita>Yes, and so a multilevel approach to self-control, it integrates those individual processes with social and structural context.
<Anita>And who says that self-control takes place in an interaction between those different environments.
<Anita>And one of them then is that microenvironment.
<Anita>That is your immediate physical and social environment, both at home and at work, for example.
<Anita>And you can exert some influence on that yourself, to some extent.
<Anita>But you also depend on, for example, what your roommate brings in in terms of groceries.
<Anita>Yes, that determines what you eat, or what the supermarket owner includes in his or her assortment, for example.
<Anita>But you can proactively influence or shape this environment, so that micro-environment.
<Rolf>Yes.
<Anita>And this is actually much less true for those other levels.
<Rolf>Yes, because the second level is then the meso-level, meso-middle.
<Rolf>And then we are really talking about neighborhoods, for example, or communities.
<Rolf>And these, of course, also influence behavior.
<Rolf>And so you can think about what I was just talking about, the environment of the school.
<Rolf>Is there, for example, one of those French fry carts or a döner cart or just not.
<Rolf>That matters then anyway for what kids are going to eat.
<Anita>Yes, if it's not there, you can't buy it.
<Rolf>No, exactly.
<Rolf>And then the macro level, that is, the highest level.
<Rolf>Then we are talking about large-scale structures, such as government policies, economic systems and also cultural values.
<Rolf>Well, one of the examples, of course, is the smoking ban.
<Rolf>So that's at the system level.
<Rolf>The law has changed.
<Rolf>And cutting taxes on healthy food would be something else.
<Anita>Yes, there's still discussion about whether that's going to happen or not.
<Anita>But then that could be change at the macro level.
<Anita>And so when you combine those different levels, it becomes clear that self-control of an individual depends not only on personal characteristics, but also on the availability and accessibility of choices, within a given environment.
<Anita>So, for example, regulating the availability of unhealthy foods through policy, can have a major impact on self-monitoring outcomes.
<Anita>If those choices, or if there is a choice at all, yes, then people can also make that choice and thus exhibit behaviors that are more consistent with the goals they have.
<Anita>Yes, and that is then because the context in which the choices are made, that is then fundamentally changed.
<Rolf>Yes, and so then you have the obesity problem again.
<Rolf>So traditional approaches say, yes, those individuals who are dealing with that, they just don't have willpower, they are weaklings.
<Rolf>But so if you have a multi-level approach, so you're going to say, we have to create an environment, where unhealthy food is not very accessible, is not very cheap.
<Rolf>Because otherwise it seems like the individual is the problem, but then it's actually the environment.
<Rolf>Well, so you can find that in other fields, for example, climate behavior.
<Rolf>The world is set up on fossil fuels, so then it's hard for people to make a choice.
<Rolf>It's easier for some people, who live in the city with good public transportation, than people who live in the countryside and get nowhere without a car.
<Rolf>So yes, so such a multilevel approach can also help policymakers design more effective interventions.
<Rolf>So instead of just focusing on strengthening individual willpower, they can focus on adapting structures to facilitate healthier and sustainable choices.
<Rolf>Then you might think about raising taxes on unhealthy products, improving urban planning to encourage physical activity and regulating marketing for harmful products.
<Rolf>I think how Dutch cities are laid out, of course, is already pretty good.
<Rolf>Foreigners are often jealous of that, because you can get around a lot on foot.
<Rolf>On the bicycle even more so.
<Rolf>You absolutely do not need a car in many cities.
<Rolf>And neither in many villages.
<Anita>No, and then you see the difference with the US, the first people what you also told me about that is that you have, I actually don't know if we ever did a broadcast on that, but you really have a part of the city there, people live there.
<Anita>You have another part of the city, that's where people do their shopping.
<Anita>And then you have another part, there people, I think a lot go to the cinema or something, or to a sporting event.
<Rolf>Yes, zoning is called that.
<Rolf>So you have different zones.
<Anita>Yes, but so that means in your residential area you can walk and do everything.
<Anita>So you can walk to the neighbor, maybe if you don't live too far away, to borrow a cup of sugar.
<Anita>Now sugar may not be a good word to borrow a carrot.
<Rolf>To borrow a carrot.
<Anita>When I'm done gnawing, you'll get it back.
<Anita>But so if you want to go shopping, or to a sports game or something, or to a training session of your soccer club or something.
<Rolf>Then you always have to drive a lot.
<Anita>While if that is all more mixed up, indeed we can walk to the supermarket or to the doctor, then indeed you don't need the car.
<Anita>So it seems so obvious to make policies that help people make better choices.
<Anita>And the question then is, why isn't that happening on a large scale?
<Anita>Now patronization, we have indeed talked about that before, of the government should no longer interfere with individual choices.
<Anita>So you see, you hear that a lot now.
<Anita>If there is anything about policy, if there are plans, then always, oh patronization, the government should not interfere with this and so on.
<Anita>But that is already happening.
<Anita>It is not that the moment there is a new law, only then the government starts interfering with our behavior.
<Anita>There are also all kinds of choices now that determine our behavior.
<Anita>That there is now so much supply in certain areas.
<Anita>This also determines our behavior.
<Anita>This also has to do with the government.
<Anita>So yes, actually that's a little crazy to mention that there's no influence now, but there will be with new legislation, for example, or with new policies.
<Anita>And in addition, of course, you have impact from big players.
<Anita>The tobacco industry has held back policies against smoking, for a very long time.
<Anita>And you see the same with fossil industry or dairy farmer.
<Anita>There are just very big parties with big interests that have a lot of influence.
<Rolf>So, we've been talking about self-control and how self-control is not only a phenomenon at the level of the individual, but also at the level of the local environment and even the global environment.
<Rolf>And to get back to last episode, there we were actually going to have a term of the week, but because we were already talking for an hour or so at the time, we had decided to transfer that to this week.
<Anita>Do you remember what understanding you had?
<Anita>Because you had one.
<Rolf>We had then listened in the car to a podcast about the legal system, "Napleiten" it was called.
<Rolf>They were talking about some case and it featured a family friend.
<Rolf>And then I thought, a family friend?
<Rolf>What exactly is a family friend?
<Rolf>I know that word only in stories that deal with crime.
<Rolf>Then there's always a family friend who has done something wrong or turns out to be a false witness or I don't know what.
<Rolf>So I wonder, do only criminal households have family friends?
<Anita>Don't you have a family friend?
<Rolf>A family friend, I imagine that it's someone who shows up all the time whether you want this or not..
<Anita>Someone who always sits on your couch.
<Rolf>That would be very quick over for me, I think, if someone did that.
<Rolf>So I wonder, maybe listeners can help us.
<Rolf>And maybe there's a listener who is a homebody.
<Anita>From someone else?
<Anita>Or has a family friend.
<Rolf>Or has a family friend.
<Rolf>So maybe those people could then email us to explain what a house friend is now.
<Anita>How it is to be a homebody.
<Rolf>How it's like a day in the life of a family friend.
<Rolf>So the email address that is drangast.com Now that drangast but does give you an idea.
<Rolf>From the liquor cabinet [a pun involving the Dutch word for liquor cabinet, "drankkast"].
<Rolf>Because we're sitting here drinking Rooibos tea, but maybe we should let go of the self-control and have a drink on it.
<Anita>Good idea.
<Rolf>My name is Rolf Zwaan.
<Anita>And I am Anita Eerland.
<Anita>Yes, January is coming to an end and many people have started the new year with good intentions.
<Anita>And when the first month is over, people quickly fall back into old patterns anyway.
<Anita>Because it is difficult to change our behavior now.
<Anita>And this morning I read a post about people who have started going to the gym since January.
<Rolf>Yes, I read that too.
<Rolf>It said, I believe, that there were more people visiting the gym this year than last January.
<Anita>Yes, that's right.
<Anita>So gym owners who were happy, I suppose.
<Anita>And then below that post were two explained comments, or letters to the editor, as you call them.
<Anita>I can't read more there, because then you have to create such an account.
<Anita>So sometimes I don't see one, and now there were two highlighted.
<Anita>And I thought it was funny, because they highlight a very different side of this message.
<Anita>First, in fact, was someone who said that people who sign up for such a subscription in January usually stop coming after five weeks.
<Anita>So that will be in one, two weeks or so.
<Anita>And then forget to cancel their subscriptions, and so that's how they bilk the gym.
<Anita>Yes, so that one was a little cynical about, not only the gym, but himself probably as well.
<Anita>So that comment was a little cynical.
<Anita>A cynical response to that post.
<Anita>And that other comment I could read was from someone who said, yes, going to the gym, was from someone who said, staying at the gym is mostly a mental issue.
<Anita>So you just have to commit to it.
<Anita>You should not give in to social pressure.
<Anita>And yes, that touches on today's topic of course self-control.
<Rolf>Yes.
<Rolf>And then what is self-control?
<Rolf>We will expand on that concept, I think, in the course of the broadcast or the episode.
<Rolf>But a first idea is that it is the ability of an individual to regulate and control his or her thoughts, emotions, impulse and behavior.
<Rolf>And so even in situations that are challenging or tempting.
<Rolf>And self-control is often seen as an important skill, contributing to things like personal growth, success and well-being.
<Anita>Yes, in any case, so that person who responded to that post thought that continuing to go to the gym was indeed mostly a matter of self-control.
<Anita>So forcing yourself to do that, not even waiting for social pressure.
<Anita>Now we are talking about self-control.
<Anita>That is the subject of today's episode.
<Anita>And there are lots of terms similar to that.
<Anita>And maybe it would be good, we've now given a definition of self-control, to also name those other concepts and explain how they then differ or rather correspond to self-control.
<Anita>First of all, self-control.
<Anita>You have given a definition there, but I would like to add to that.
<Anita>That self-control always involves a motivational conflict.
<Anita>So for example, you actually want to cut down your alcohol consumption, but you're at a party and you actually feel more like a regular beer than a non-alcoholic variety.
<Anita>Then you have the motivation to drink alcohol at that party now.
<Anita>And you also have the longer-term motivation to start drinking less.
<Anita>Well, the two are in conflict then.
<Anita>And keeping the longer-term goal in mind, i.e. reducing your alcohol consumption, and therefore ordering a non-alcoholic beer in the shorter term, that requires self-control.
<Anita>Drinking less alcohol is a good resolution for many people, as is exercising more.
<Anita>And with going to exercise more, the same principle seems to be at play, so I stay on the couch, hanging out inside.
<Anita>Or do I go outside to run?
<Anita>That's especially a tough choice when it's cold and raining outside, I know from personal experience.
<Anita>Although I haven't run for a long time.
<Anita>But anyway, you still recent by the way.
<Rolf>Yes, that's right.
<Rolf>I suddenly thought of my son-in-law, who is running so much.
<Anita>I can't be left behind.
<Rolf>Yes, and I ran then and I had not run for six years, but I thought nevertheless I can run five kilometers in one run, overconfident as I am.
<Rolf>And then I ran three in a row, which was easy.
<Rolf>And surely I could have done more, but then I thought a bit of exercising self-control, not immediately going over everything again.
<Rolf>Despite that, I think I hobbled around for a week after that.
<Anita>Well, stumbled.
<Rolf>My calves were not used to it anymore, but I do plan to do it more.
<Rolf>And yes, I used to run a lot.
<Rolf>I ran as much as fifty to seventy kilometers a week, every week, for ten years or so.
<Rolf>And yes, actually then it kind of dominates your life.
<Rolf>So for example, if I had a conference or had to give a lecture in another city or another country, I would always immediately look on Google where I could go running then.
<Rolf>And I remember that one time in Vancouver, I was at a conference and the weather was beautiful.
<Rolf>And I had seen of, oh, you have Stanley Park, which is a peninsula, and there's a nice running trail along the coast there, ten kilometers.
<Rolf>I'm going to do that.
<Rolf>But the convention was going on at the hotel near Stanley Park.
<Rolf>And when I came back from my round, then I was stretching against a wall.
<Rolf>But I hadn't seen that it was just break time for Congress.
<Rolf>And all those people, there were outside or at the window and they saw me like this.
<Rolf>And I walked in like this in my running clothes and they said, oh, what a discipline you have to go running.
<Rolf>But actually, of course, it was the other way around.
<Rolf>I was just addicted to running.
<Rolf>But the intention was for me to be at the conference.
<Rolf>So actually I had precisely no discipline.
<Rolf>And yes, I did come to realize that later.
<Rolf>So you do have to have a clear understanding of what then the larger goal actually is.
<Rolf>And so that determines, if you are doing that, so you have discipline.
<Rolf>I was training for the half marathon, but of course that was not my job.
<Anita>No, that's true.
<Anita>But actually you've mentioned discipline now.
<Anita>And self-discipline was actually another term I wanted to discuss as well, because it's very similar to self-control, but there does seem to be a difference.
<Anita>You said, self-discipline, if you...
<Anita>So those congress people thought it was about self-discipline, because you would actually go to congress, and then of course that's fun in their eyes.
<Anita>You go running instead.
<Anita>Go do something that is less fun in their eyes, and you need self-discipline for that.
<Anita>And that's exactly the difference actually with self-control.
<Anita>So when you talk about pushing yourself to do something, which is actually not that fun, which you don't feel like doing in the short term, but you do it for a long-term goal, then we are talking about self-discipline.
<Rolf>Yes, but so that was not the case with me, because I found it....
<Anita>No, but those people thought so.
<Anita>And since for you the running was more fun than the congress, so then that doesn't play.
<Anita>But if you see it the other way around, there would be self-discipline.
<Anita>Then we also have self-regulation.
<Anita>And that's actually a very broad term.
<Anita>That's about all kinds of different processes that have to do with choosing a personal goal, so for example, losing weight or drinking less alcohol, working toward that goal.
<Anita>And sometimes the goal later for what it is.
<Anita>So if at some point you decide, I'm no longer pursuing that goal.
<Anita>Everything involved in that decision-making also has to do with self-regulation.
<Rolf>Yes.
<Rolf>So then you would actually say that self-control and self-discipline both fall under self-regulation.
<Anita>Yes, that self-regulation is actually the broader, overarching concept.
<Anita>This includes self-control and self-discipline.
<Anita>And then I have one last one and that is self-control or also called impulse control.
<Anita>That's also a term you come across a lot and that's one of the characteristics of self-control.
<Anita>So maybe good since self-control is today's topic to, now that we've discussed those related concepts, to dive deeper into self-control.
<Rolf>Yes, and we have here then four characteristics of self-control that we will go off for a moment.
<Rolf>And so the first is indeed that self-control or impulse control.
<Rolf>So you suppress the immediate desire.
<Rolf>To buy, say, a Mars or something.
<Rolf>I don't like mars, by the way, but in a manner of speaking.
<Anita>I don't have a problem with not buying a Mars either.
<Rolf>In favor of a great cause or long-term interest.
<Rolf>And also, for example, don't immediately react with anger when you receive criticism.
<Anita>I have a little more of a problem with that.
<Anita>I can leave a Mars without any problem.
<Rolf>Or don't start honking like a busybody and pointing at your forehead when someone doesn't give you the right of way.
<Anita>Yes, that suits you more.
<Rolf>Yes, but I've gotten better at that.
<Rolf>Ice were yesterday on the German Autobahn.
<Rolf>I did hit my forehead once, but I didn't honk.
<Rolf>And beyond that, I just shook my head pityingly.
<Rolf>So it wasn't too bad this time.
<Rolf>As you get older, that might get better.
<Rolf>I don't know about that, that impulse control.
<Anita>Yes, it could be.
<Rolf>Well, emotion regulation, that's a second core characteristic then.
<Rolf>So that is the ability to control emotions, such as frustration, sadness or anger, and then express yourself in a constructive way.
<Rolf>So if you can regulate your emotions well, you would not easily be overwhelmed by intense emotions that then determine your behavior.
<Rolf>So then not that you don't feel those emotions, or that you can't experience them, but they don't get the upper hand.
<Rolf>And that is, for example, that you calm down before entering into a difficult discussion.
<Anita>Yes, and of course there are situations to think of where it makes perfect sense to experience intense emotions.
<Anita>So that's not the point now.
<Anita>These are actually situations that do not call for a violent emotional reaction, but in which you can experience them.
<Rolf>That's right.
<Rolf>Well, so that's the second characteristic then.
<Rolf>And the third characteristic is purposeful behavior, even when something is unpleasant.
<Rolf>So then again you have that conflict between two goals.
<Rolf>The one goal is to go do something more fun than that one thing.
<Rolf>For example, then exercise if you don't like it.
<Rolf>Then you'd rather stay on the couch or I don't know what.
<Anita>Or so already ordering a regular beer, when you actually want less than drink.
<Rolf>Yes, so sticking to goals.
<Rolf>And so, for example, also at work, for example, working through a project, even if it's boring or difficult.
<Rolf>And waiver while exercising.
<Rolf>I know that then, too.
<Rolf>I knew then, too.
<Anita>Well, didn't you give up last time with running then?
<Rolf>No.
<Anita>No, not while walking, but afterward.
<Rolf>Yes, after that, yes.
<Rolf>But that was because I wasn't used to running on forefoot anymore.
<Rolf>I think that was it.
<Rolf>But well, and resistance to temptation.
<Rolf>So the ability to say no to immediate temptations.
<Rolf>And so, for example, of do you want another piece of apple pie or something, if you're on your own.
<Rolf>And don't eat unhealthy snacks when you're dieting.
<Rolf>And don't drink beer on the slopes either if you have to ski afterwards.
<Anita>Yes.
<Rolf>Which we adhere to well these days, I must say.
<Anita>Well, that's better too.
<Rolf>Yes.
<Anita>And can you maybe ask yourself of why are we talking about self-control?
<Anita>Why is that such an important or interesting topic?
<Anita>Now, good self-control seems to be a predictor of all kinds of positive long-term outcomes.
<Anita>So people with good self-control, they would experience more personal growth.
<Anita>Self-control makes it easier to overcome negative habits and develop positive ones.
<Anita>Well, that leads to personal growth.
<Anita>It is also related to success in relationships.
<Anita>Well, if you could better control your emotions and reactions, you would be less likely to get into conflicts.
<Anita>And if you find yourself in a conflict, you better resolve it.
<Anita>That's obviously helpful for your interpersonal relationships.
<Anita>Good self-control also correlates with academic and professional success.
<Anita>You've just been working on a task even though you don't really feel like it anymore or it's boring or something.
<Anita>Self-control helps people work consistently and avoid distractions.
<Anita>So really focus on a task.
<Anita>And it also correlates with better health.
<Anita>So self-control helps you make healthier choices.
<Anita>We have had several holes about exercising and leaving a snack and so on.
<Anita>Also get enough sleep, for example.
<Anita>Well, that helps with better health.
<Anita>And so that works better when you have more self-control.
<Anita>Maybe because then you decide not to linger too long at a party and go to bed earlier or something.
<Anita>I have no idea.
<Anita>But at least good self-control appears to be a predictor of all kinds of positive things.
<Anita>Many different areas.
<Anita>So that's why it's kind of interesting to look at self-control.
<Rolf>Yes, when we were reading so much about self-control, I did see that there is a huge literature.
<Rolf>Not only, let's say, in cognitive psychology, but also in clinical psychology, of course.
<Rolf>And there are lots of self-help books on self-control.
<Rolf>Well, we've already given some examples, but so you can think of things like not giving in to impulse buying, for example, or impulse buying I should say, even if something seems attractive.
<Rolf>That you think, oh, that's discount.
<Rolf>I still have a page open now, a tab of a guitar that is still expensive, but very much cheaper.
<Rolf>And I look at it every day.
<Anita>I think you really have had that one open for months.
<Rolf>Then I keep saying to myself, no, I don't need it.
<Anita>Ah, self-control?
<Rolf>Yes, so I think I've kept it open, but I still look there from time to time.
<Rolf>Till well down.
<Rolf>And I came earlier during a stressful situation by taking deep breaths, we said something like that before, and so also sustain a work session or a sports session, despite distractions from social media or friends.
<Rolf>And now there are those who say yes, self-control is a skill that can be developed and strengthened through practice and awareness.
<Rolf>And that plays a crucial role in achieving a successful life, you might say.
<Rolf>And that it then....
<Rolf>I had a colleague in Florida, Roy Baumeister, who then had the idea of self-control is a kind of muscle you can train.
<Rolf>And then if you used it too much, you suddenly had no self-control or something.
<Rolf>But that research is pretty debunked, I must say.
<Anita>Was that the ego depletion?
<Rolf>Yes, ego depletion.
<Rolf>But anyway, so self-control is all about choosing between immediate temptations and long-term focused goals.
<Rolf>And those goals can also be prosocial, so good for others, so to speak.
<Rolf>And what has traditionally happened in psychology, at least, is that research on self-control has focused on individual processes, such as willpower.
<Rolf>So not social processes, but more focused on the individual.
<Anita>Yes, so if you just can't manage to get rid of your smoking addiction, or if you just can't manage to lose weight, it's partly because you don't have good self-control.
<Anita>And that you still keep succumbing to short-term temptation and forgetting the long-term goal.
<Anita>That is then blamed on personal factors in that traditional approach, on that traditional research.
<Anita>Then it's down to your personality.
<Rolf>Yes.
<Rolf>And so, we read an article now, that's also in the show notes.
<Rolf>And that actually argues from, you have to approach self-control not only as at the level of the individual, but also at the level of, let's say, the local environment and the global environment.
<Rolf>It even distinguishes between three types of environmental factors, micro, meso and macro.
<Rolf>And so it is indeed about things like the layout of the supermarket, but also, for example, about policy, government policy, about economic structures and so on.
<Rolf>And then what you see is that in the research that's been done so far on self-control, is that people who have strong self-control, they don't actually need to use that self-control that much at all, because they often avoid situations where they might be tempted, to do something that doesn't then support their goals.
<Rolf>And in addition, environmental factors often determine how much temptation is present in your environment.
<Rolf>And this is very clear in obesity, for example, where the food environment is very important.
<Rolf>In the United States, I do know that there is research that in some neighborhoods, yes, you can only...
<Rolf>You already have to go somewhere by car to get food.
<Rolf>And then there is only fast food in the neighborhood.
<Rolf>You have to drive really far by being able to get fresh vegetables.
<Anita>Yes, well, and I'm always thinking about the station, the train station.
<Anita>I don't know how many stores you have with all the snacks.
<Anita>If you have a few minutes, you can get it and eat it like this.
<Anita>There are also always an awful lot of people snacking at the station.
<Anita>Can't say I'm never one of those.
<Anita>But such an environment does make people tend to do that.
<Anita>So even if you're not planning to snack, if you're at the station and you're still waiting.
<Anita>Even on the platform there are those things.
<Anita>So then you're already through the gates.
<Anita>You are just standing on the platform of the train.
<Anita>So it's one of those kiosks with all kinds of unhealthy snacks?
<Rolf>Well, at our Erasmus University campus, that's where the Spar is.
<Rolf>And I always notice that there are a lot more unhealthy things there.
<Rolf>Then let's say in other savings you know.
<Anita>It's a completely different concept.
<Anita>Also more focused on fast...
<Rolf>Yes, quickly, but a lot of unhealthy things actually.
<Rolf>And then we also have on campus some and a Starbucks.
<Rolf>But now it's Coffee Fellows, I believe.
<Rolf>But then there you have lots of cakes.
<Rolf>And you sometimes see people walking away with things that are not coffee, but a whole dessert, so to speak.
<Rolf>So then I think, yes, all of that is also environment that actually tempts some people to engage in unhealthy behaviors.
<Anita>Yes, and now we're talking about what the environment looks like.
<Anita>And that that causes people to perhaps make unhealthier choices and have more difficulty with their self-control.
<Anita>I mentioned smoking earlier.
<Anita>And with regard to smoking, you can see that there has been a change there in recent years.
<Anita>That was addressed with policy.
<Anita>So you may smoke fewer places.
<Anita>You are no longer allowed to smoke in the hospitality industry.
<Anita>First at work, I remember, on the 5th floor there was one of those smoking pens.
<Rolf>Yes, that was such a blue of smoke indeed.
<Anita>And I don't think that's now either.
<Anita>Are you only allowed to smoke outside?
<Rolf>No, in front of the building I don't think you can smoke either.
<Rolf>There I also see....
<Rolf>Sometimes there are smokers behind the building.
<Rolf>You sometimes notice that too, because you sometimes stand in the elevator with someone who smells terribly of smoking.
<Anita>Maybe they will have smoke-free campus now too.
<Anita>But in any case, such a discouragement policy does then make it easier for people to exercise that self-control.
<Rolf>Yes, that is indeed true.
<Rolf>So what that shows is that self-control is not just an individual responsibility, but it is indeed a phenomenon that is dependent or determined by environmental factors.
<Anita>Yes, and so in addition to that individual approach that we were talking about, so how self-monitoring has been approached so far, more from the science, but also from a clinical angle, for example.
<Anita>Contrast this with a more multi-level approach, which does include those individual factors.
<Anita>So it is not said of an individual can do absolutely nothing about it himself, but that it is integrated with also more structural factors.
<Anita>And when you do that, such an approach, you approach that relationship between an individual and his or her environment.
<Anita>And when you do, it offers more insights.
<Anita>Both for research, that's where you approach self-monitoring in a different way, and also for policy making.
<Anita>So if you want people to engage in certain behaviors, then you can say, yes, people should just exercise more self-control.
<Anita>But you can also see what you can do as a policy to modify the environment so that it becomes easier for people to exercise that self-control.
<Anita>So it can help design interventions that are not just focused on the individual, but really drive structural change.
<Anita>And if you do that, yes, you can come up with more effective solutions to all kinds of societal self-control problems.
<Anita>Because we do say obesity, for example, yes, is a problem of the individual, but of course is also a social problem.
<Anita>And so are environmental problems that you can address this way.
<Anita>And consumption behavior, for example, well, again is related to the environment and, by the way, obesity.
<Anita>But anyway, so to address those complex problems, such a multilevel approach is actually, yes, more promising.
<Rolf>Yes, yes, and so well, that's actually what this article we're discussing argues.
<Rolf>And that article itself links to an article we discussed several broadcasts ago.
<Rolf>Well, some something like forty broadcasts ago.
<Anita>So long ago already?
<Rolf>Yes, yes, episodes 86 and 87.
<Rolf>There we were talking about the I-frame and the S-frame.
<Rolf>And the I-frame is to blame the problem on the individual.
<Rolf>So obesity is the problem of the individual.
<Rolf>And so the individual has to show more willpower or whatever.
<Rolf>The S-frame stands for system frame.
<Rolf>That said, yes, but you achieve more if you change something about the legislation.
<Rolf>But yes, business usually doesn't want that.
<Rolf>There is a lot of pressure not to use the S-frame.
<Anita>There is also much more complicated.
<Rolf>So then people just say, okay, you have to separate plastic from paper and I don't know what.
<Rolf>While many important gains could probably be made at the system level.
<Rolf>And so too, perhaps in terms of self-control.
<Anita>Well, first let's look again at the traditional approach to self-control.
<Anita>So then it is assumed that self-control is mainly an individual process.
<Anita>Then the focus is mainly on personality traits, such as impulsivity or discipline, and cognitive skills, such as inhibition, for example.
<Anita>And those kinds of characteristics or skills are then tested in a lab, if you want to know whether people have a lot of self-control or little self-control.
<Anita>With, for example, a questionnaire or with experimental tasks, where people then have to choose, for example, between a short-term reward or a long-term reward, and how long can people put it off and so on.
<Anita>So of course it is all very nicely conceived, but the downside of this kind of test is that it takes very little account of the everyday reality in which self-control or the lack thereof takes place.
<Anita>And in addition, there are all kinds of interventions to improve self-control.
<Anita>You said all self-help books, of so you can better regulate your emotions.
<Anita>And there are an awful lot of such things online as well, I saw the other day.
<Anita>But so all those interventions that focus on improving individual skills.
<Anita>Trains of will or how to create new habits or something.
<Anita>And of course that can be very valuable, but such an approach does fall short.
<Anita>For there is actually very little, and certainly not enough, attention paid to the influence of a person's social or physical environment.
<Anita>We do not live in a sterile, controlled lab environment.
<Anita>So if we want to better understand self-control, and help people exercise better self-control, we need to look beyond just those individual factors.
<Anita>An example is the conflict between the desire to consume meat, and the desire to avoid meat for ethical or environmental reasons.
<Anita>And then self-control is traditionally seen as a personal struggle to show willpower and make a better choice.
<Anita>But in reality, there can be all kinds of external factors that influence your choice, to consume meat or not, such as the availability of meatless options in a restaurant, for example.
<Anita>If there are no vegetarian dishes on the menu, you may not want to eat meat.
<Anita>Oh no, the other way around.
<Rolf>No, that's right.
<Anita>That's right, then you can't want to eat meat.
<Anita>But then when that option is not there, you still choose a dish with meat.
<Anita>But also, for example, the price of meat substitutes.
<Anita>That price is higher than for a lot of meat.
<Anita>So that may be an economic consideration.
<Rolf>Or how healthy meat substitutes actually are then.
<Rolf>These often contain more salt.
<Anita>Well, there are all kinds of different studies on that.
<Anita>But yes, no doubt that also plays a role.
<Anita>Social norms for eating.
<Anita>So that's more of a social factor then.
<Anita>All these external factors, they also determine a person's choice.
<Anita>So then it's not just down to willpower, for example.
<Rolf>Now people are researching self-control not only in the lab, but also in everyday situations.
<Rolf>And then snapshots are taken in everyday life.
<Rolf>And then what you see is an interesting paradox.
<Rolf>That's people saying, I have a lot of self-control.
<Rolf>Those who have spoken on average, they are less tempted to do something.
<Rolf>And they also have less problematic desires.
<Rolf>So they are actually not tempted to deviate from their goal.
<Rolf>And then you might say, how can that be?
<Rolf>So they have more self-control, but they use that self-control less.
<Rolf>But the explanation then is that those people who therefore say of themselves, and research shows that they are right in this, that they have a lot of willpower, they avoid situations through which they might be tempted.
<Rolf>So they bypass motivational conflicts.
<Rolf>They avoid exposure to tempting stimuli.
<Rolf>So self-control is not only thus an individual responsibility, as we have said several times, but is thus also strongly influenced by the environment.
<Rolf>And that environment can then influence in two ways.
<Anita>Yes, so you can actively shape your environment yourself.
<Anita>That's one of those two ways.
<Anita>So as you said, people who say, who themselves say they have good self-control, they often avoid tempting situations or they adjust their environment to minimize temptations.
<Anita>So for example you surround yourself with people who support healthy behaviors.
<Anita>Thereby changing your social environment or by removing tempting stimuli from your immediate environment.
<Anita>And that's actually proactive.
<Anita>Proactively managing your environment is often more effective than reactive strategies.
<Anita>So you're not going to intervene what is going to change your environment until those temptations are already there.
<Anita>So with proactive, you actually do everything you can to avoid falling into that temptation.
<Anita>Because then you know, yes then there is nothing I have to resist.
<Anita>Reactive is that you start adjusting your environment the moment you notice of oh come tempted to do things that I really don't want to do.
<Anita>So I have to start changing something.
<Rolf>Yes, yes so that's an example then.
<Rolf>So that you are actively shaping the environment so that well you don't actually have to use your self-control as much.
<Rolf>But of course there are many aspects of the environment that are determined by others and by policy makers, corporations or social structures.
<Rolf>And yes, we have already talked about something then called an obesogenic environment.
<Rolf>So an area where there are a lot of fast food restaurants.
<Rolf>And so if you live there and there are few greengrocers in the neighborhood, for example, that's already a factor that so then increases the temptation for people to go for the fast food because it takes less effort.
<Rolf>But is fast food also cheaper?
<Rolf>I do remember when I was in the US for the first time, it amazed me how many of those ads you saw, billboards, saying how expensive something was, from 1.99 or so.
<Rolf>While I thought, if you're going to eat somewhere, what matters is that it's tasty.
<Rolf>But no, it's about being cheap.
<Rolf>And so if a hamburger is cheaper than fruits and vegetables, you make it harder for people to make a healthy choice.
<Anita>Yes, and so these are other things.
<Anita>Because this is not something you as a person...
<Anita>You can say, yes, then go live in another neighborhood or something.
<Anita>But of course that is much more difficult and much more far-reaching to deal with.
<Anita>So indeed you cannot always bend your environment to your will.
<Rolf>No, that's the point here.
<Rolf>Because the environment is determined by others, like policy makers and so on.
<Anita>Yes, no, I get that.
<Anita>But it just seems like then you could say, yeah, you're going to live in another neighborhood.
<Anita>In that way, you can also adjust your environment.
<Anita>But this is about bigger things.
<Rolf>Yes, because there are all the social-
<Rolf>economic factors play a role.
<Rolf>You can't move to another neighborhood because the houses there are too expensive or whatever.
<Rolf>So that plays out very clearly in the United States.
<Rolf>You can just see it when you drive around a city.
<Rolf>And so then you also need the car and then again you don't walk.
<Rolf>But yes, in the Netherlands we do have things like that.
<Rolf>I think I read in the paper yesterday, in Almere, that the municipality of Almere wants no unhealthy food, and by that they mean especially deep-frying, well, to be offered near schools and hospitals.
<Rolf>And then of course people are against that, because they say what you said earlier, that it is patronizing, you have to know it yourself, and I don't know what else.
<Rolf>So there's a whole discussion about that in Almere then.
<Rolf>But anyway, that's just one example, unhealthy food.
<Rolf>But you can also think about addiction issues, or the environment, all kinds of other things.
<Rolf>So what is said in the article we are discussing is, we need a multi-level approach.
<Rolf>So we need it on the S-frame of the system.
<Rolf>In addition to that, the approach at the level of the individual.
<Anita>Yes, and so a multilevel approach to self-control, it integrates those individual processes with social and structural context.
<Anita>And who says that self-control takes place in an interaction between those different environments.
<Anita>And one of them then is that microenvironment.
<Anita>That is your immediate physical and social environment, both at home and at work, for example.
<Anita>And you can exert some influence on that yourself, to some extent.
<Anita>But you also depend on, for example, what your roommate brings in in terms of groceries.
<Anita>Yes, that determines what you eat, or what the supermarket owner includes in his or her assortment, for example.
<Anita>But you can proactively influence or shape this environment, so that micro-environment.
<Rolf>Yes.
<Anita>And this is actually much less true for those other levels.
<Rolf>Yes, because the second level is then the meso-level, meso-middle.
<Rolf>And then we are really talking about neighborhoods, for example, or communities.
<Rolf>And these, of course, also influence behavior.
<Rolf>And so you can think about what I was just talking about, the environment of the school.
<Rolf>Is there, for example, one of those French fry carts or a döner cart or just not.
<Rolf>That matters then anyway for what kids are going to eat.
<Anita>Yes, if it's not there, you can't buy it.
<Rolf>No, exactly.
<Rolf>And then the macro level, that is, the highest level.
<Rolf>Then we are talking about large-scale structures, such as government policies, economic systems and also cultural values.
<Rolf>Well, one of the examples, of course, is the smoking ban.
<Rolf>So that's at the system level.
<Rolf>The law has changed.
<Rolf>And cutting taxes on healthy food would be something else.
<Anita>Yes, there's still discussion about whether that's going to happen or not.
<Anita>But then that could be change at the macro level.
<Anita>And so when you combine those different levels, it becomes clear that self-control of an individual depends not only on personal characteristics, but also on the availability and accessibility of choices, within a given environment.
<Anita>So, for example, regulating the availability of unhealthy foods through policy, can have a major impact on self-monitoring outcomes.
<Anita>If those choices, or if there is a choice at all, yes, then people can also make that choice and thus exhibit behaviors that are more consistent with the goals they have.
<Anita>Yes, and that is then because the context in which the choices are made, that is then fundamentally changed.
<Rolf>Yes, and so then you have the obesity problem again.
<Rolf>So traditional approaches say, yes, those individuals who are dealing with that, they just don't have willpower, they are weaklings.
<Rolf>But so if you have a multi-level approach, so you're going to say, we have to create an environment, where unhealthy food is not very accessible, is not very cheap.
<Rolf>Because otherwise it seems like the individual is the problem, but then it's actually the environment.
<Rolf>Well, so you can find that in other fields, for example, climate behavior.
<Rolf>The world is set up on fossil fuels, so then it's hard for people to make a choice.
<Rolf>It's easier for some people, who live in the city with good public transportation, than people who live in the countryside and get nowhere without a car.
<Rolf>So yes, so such a multilevel approach can also help policymakers design more effective interventions.
<Rolf>So instead of just focusing on strengthening individual willpower, they can focus on adapting structures to facilitate healthier and sustainable choices.
<Rolf>Then you might think about raising taxes on unhealthy products, improving urban planning to encourage physical activity and regulating marketing for harmful products.
<Rolf>I think how Dutch cities are laid out, of course, is already pretty good.
<Rolf>Foreigners are often jealous of that, because you can get around a lot on foot.
<Rolf>On the bicycle even more so.
<Rolf>You absolutely do not need a car in many cities.
<Rolf>And neither in many villages.
<Anita>No, and then you see the difference with the US, the first people what you also told me about that is that you have, I actually don't know if we ever did a broadcast on that, but you really have a part of the city there, people live there.
<Anita>You have another part of the city, that's where people do their shopping.
<Anita>And then you have another part, there people, I think a lot go to the cinema or something, or to a sporting event.
<Rolf>Yes, zoning is called that.
<Rolf>So you have different zones.
<Anita>Yes, but so that means in your residential area you can walk and do everything.
<Anita>So you can walk to the neighbor, maybe if you don't live too far away, to borrow a cup of sugar.
<Anita>Now sugar may not be a good word to borrow a carrot.
<Rolf>To borrow a carrot.
<Anita>When I'm done gnawing, you'll get it back.
<Anita>But so if you want to go shopping, or to a sports game or something, or to a training session of your soccer club or something.
<Rolf>Then you always have to drive a lot.
<Anita>While if that is all more mixed up, indeed we can walk to the supermarket or to the doctor, then indeed you don't need the car.
<Anita>So it seems so obvious to make policies that help people make better choices.
<Anita>And the question then is, why isn't that happening on a large scale?
<Anita>Now patronization, we have indeed talked about that before, of the government should no longer interfere with individual choices.
<Anita>So you see, you hear that a lot now.
<Anita>If there is anything about policy, if there are plans, then always, oh patronization, the government should not interfere with this and so on.
<Anita>But that is already happening.
<Anita>It is not that the moment there is a new law, only then the government starts interfering with our behavior.
<Anita>There are also all kinds of choices now that determine our behavior.
<Anita>That there is now so much supply in certain areas.
<Anita>This also determines our behavior.
<Anita>This also has to do with the government.
<Anita>So yes, actually that's a little crazy to mention that there's no influence now, but there will be with new legislation, for example, or with new policies.
<Anita>And in addition, of course, you have impact from big players.
<Anita>The tobacco industry has held back policies against smoking, for a very long time.
<Anita>And you see the same with fossil industry or dairy farmer.
<Anita>There are just very big parties with big interests that have a lot of influence.
<Rolf>So, we've been talking about self-control and how self-control is not only a phenomenon at the level of the individual, but also at the level of the local environment and even the global environment.
<Rolf>And to get back to last episode, there we were actually going to have a term of the week, but because we were already talking for an hour or so at the time, we had decided to transfer that to this week.
<Anita>Do you remember what understanding you had?
<Anita>Because you had one.
<Rolf>We had then listened in the car to a podcast about the legal system, "Napleiten" it was called.
<Rolf>They were talking about some case and it featured a family friend.
<Rolf>And then I thought, a family friend?
<Rolf>What exactly is a family friend?
<Rolf>I know that word only in stories that deal with crime.
<Rolf>Then there's always a family friend who has done something wrong or turns out to be a false witness or I don't know what.
<Rolf>So I wonder, do only criminal households have family friends?
<Anita>Don't you have a family friend?
<Rolf>A family friend, I imagine that it's someone who shows up all the time whether you want this or not..
<Anita>Someone who always sits on your couch.
<Rolf>That would be very quick over for me, I think, if someone did that.
<Rolf>So I wonder, maybe listeners can help us.
<Rolf>And maybe there's a listener who is a homebody.
<Anita>From someone else?
<Anita>Or has a family friend.
<Rolf>Or has a family friend.
<Rolf>So maybe those people could then email us to explain what a house friend is now.
<Anita>How it is to be a homebody.
<Rolf>How it's like a day in the life of a family friend.
<Rolf>So the email address that is drangast.com Now that drangast but does give you an idea.
<Rolf>From the liquor cabinet [a pun involving the Dutch word for liquor cabinet, "drankkast"].
<Rolf>Because we're sitting here drinking Rooibos tea, but maybe we should let go of the self-control and have a drink on it.
<Anita>Good idea.
Outro music written and played by Rolf
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